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February 21, 2006

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Phil

Re fencing, Leicester etc: one logical error you missed out was the ecological fallacy. Carry on.

The Pedant-General

Chris,

Whilst the majority of your post is very sound, this is not:

"Another bias in the clash of cultures is the group attribution error. Anong "us", bad people are exceptions. Among "them", wrong 'uns are representative of the general group.
So, to westerners, the soldiers who beat up Iraqis are exceptions. To Muslims, they are typical. To "us", suicide bombers are representative, whereas to Muslims, they are exceptions*.

* Yes, these are woeful generalizations.I express them thus for illustrative effect of likely differential dispositions, not 100% accuracy. "

The difference is not the percentage or whether we regard the outliers as exceptions in the slighest. It is to do with the status accorded to them.

"We" condemn soldiers who beat up civilians. We treat these outliers/exceptions as unacceptable.

In marked contrast, the Muslim exceptions/outliers are lauded as martyrs, as exemplars.

Indeed, the group attribution error would appear to be in direct contradiction to the way in which you have applied it: "we" regard homicide bombers as exceptions: "They" - or at least their most vocal leaders - regard them as the norm to which all should aspire.

You should read the Norm today: he links to this epic speech:
http://www.kerenmalki.org/Valencia_Conference_Feb06.htm

Money quote:
"To dismiss this depressing chain of events by calling it a difference of opinion over definitions is to miss the point. There is an actual, practical life-and-death question here which we, assembled here in this hall, are uniquely placed to answer: Is it ever legitimate to target women, children and other noncombatants? For nations comprising some 30 per cent of the United Nations [the OIC], the answer – tragically, astonishingly - is yes."

Katherine

You seem to have rather fallen into the same traps yourself, Mr Pedant-General.

Maynard Handley

"We" condemn soldiers who beat up civilians. We treat these outliers/exceptions as unacceptable.


Who is we? There is a fraction of US society that condemns them; there is a larger fraction (Bush was re-elected) that ranges from willing to ignore them to glorifying them. Fox News explains every day how this behavior is quite acceptable. The military has made only potemkin attempts to punish those involved in this behavior, has made no attempts to punish those who authorized it, but has made aggressive attempts to make sure it stays hidden. Might I remind you about certain photos that were published in the Australian press only a few days ago? It certainly looks like the latest Supreme Court justice is pretty much OK with this behavior.

As far as I can tell US behavior is 100% in line with what the post said --- including the various justifications for how whatever happens on the US side that doesn't look that great is an unfortunate error, or was the result of unacceptable provocation, or is necessary in pursuit of a higher truth or whatever today's excuse happens to be.

CB

Hmm, not sure how a congress vote of 90-9 against using torture equates to a vote for errant US troops, still less the prison sentences handed out to the Abu Ghraib troops, regardless of what Bush himself has (wrongly) asked for.

Similarly of course one can't say that there is widespread, or even a significant level, of support for suicide bombers and the organisations that create them. What support there is (Hamas in Palestine for example) seems to be borne out of this 'culture clash', where people feel they have to choose a 'side'. Personally my 'side' is that of democrats (small d) and secularists (regardless of faith) throughout the middle east and the west. I want what they want, a free society where they can worship Islam if they wish and I can not if I wish. How to accomplish it is, of course, a more complicated point.

jamal

This is true. But it is still a two way street.

Some will use such a view and innovate their own ideas which has proven to be a downfall for Islam and the progression of Muslims. Other will use it to avoid taking any action in helping themselves and others to assist Islam and the progression of Muslims.

A thoughtful peice I have read recently and actively promote is a Pre-Khutbah speech available at Brand New Malaysian, which concludes;

"Struggling for the Victory of Islam would entail an outright, unapologetic challenge to this global hegemon, though this struggle cannot and will not be secured unless and until Muslims learn to work with other communities. Here lies the truth that many of us have failed to realise or have not been able to admit: The Victory of Islam's universal values untimately depends on humanity as a whole, and not Muslims alone."
http://www.brandmalaysia.com/movabletype/archives/2005/12/farish_a_noor_w.html

I consider it a must read for Muslims. In case that site goes down, it is also available at my blog.
http://opinionated.blogsome.com/2005/12/29/what-is-the-victory-of-islam/

El Cid

Nice article.
I could nitpick, but broadly speaking I agree with you.
You sound like an ex-City type with lots of time on his/her hands. Or maybe you're on gardening leave?


jamal

nah, sick leave at the moment. 4 days off with suspected bird flu. Back on monday!.

jamal

^^ i now realise that comment did not refer to me!

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