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January 08, 2011

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Edward Spalton

You might think rather differently if you lived in Derby and had young daughters. A gang of Muslim men has just been convicted of a lengthy reign of terror and rape.

I also suspect that, for many years, crimes of this sort were ignored or played down - not only for the usual problems of credible evidence, heightened by "community cohesion", but for reasons of Political Correctness. It is widely felt that domestic violence within immigrant communities is similarly played down. After all "It's their culture" which religiously sanctions wife beating. Official timidity has made whole areas shariah compliant and the Queen's write, de facto, does not run there.

oldpolitics

Gang crime will generally lead to fewer arrests per offence than individual crime, won't it?

I certainly think, given what we know about the reporting and investigation of sex crimes, that arrests are probably the worst available measure other than convictions.

Ron1954

Does anyone have any knowledge of a gang of white Christian males, with posh motors, touring muslim areas looking for muslim girls to rape? Thought not.
I'm not a Jack Straw supporter and I have no idea why he spoken out. There must be something in it for him somewhere.

Larry

[You might think rather differently if you lived in Derby and had young daughters.]

Yes, Edward, and you might think differently again if you had brown skin, lived in Burnley, and were confronted by a gang of BNPists spilling out of the pub, demanding to know whether you're a paedo.

david morris

Ron 1954

Ironic isn't it. Not a peep out of Straw on this problem whilst he needed the support of local Asians to retain his seat in the House of Commons, yet now he's a member of the House of Lords........

Such action is entirely consistent with his general contempt of the electorate (as witnessed by his typically gracious remarks on the morning after the last General Election)

Kind regards

chris

@ Edward - why would I think differently? The incidence of Pakistani sex crime is what it is, regardless of whom the victims are. Can we have some respect for evidence?

Sam Hussey

Unlike Black or Jewish people. Asians in general are completely incompatible with living in Britain today. The more people understand that the better. Their name is tarnished but as it should be.They have biten the hand that has given them refuge. Most unwelcome guests.

Chunkylimey

"You might think rather differently if you lived in Derby and had young daughters. A gang of Muslim men has just been convicted of a lengthy reign of terror and rape."

As opposed to feeling differently if your daughter was raped by a White gang which would be more probable in a less diverse town?

You're just the kind of mathematically incompetent bigot that is exposed as such when proper statistics and math is applied to a debate. Try an evidence based argument in the future rather than your ignorant anecdotal opinion.

Since most of the people were involved were male then clearly using your idiotic logic the safest option would be to criminalize males.

Also using your logic since most assaults against young Pakistani males are committed by White British males we should jail those criminal scum as well on suspicion.

Or alternatively you could learn about issues before having an opinion on them.

Yvonne Ridley

Stereotyping is dangerous and people in this forum should know better. See below.
Well there's definitely a problem with Dirty old white men if you read this: http://www.chris-uk.org/paedophile-rings/cornish-paedophile-ring and in Scotland they have problem with while, male babysitters: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/video/Paedophile-Gang-Leaders-Neil-Strachan-And-James-Rennie-Jailed-For-Life/Video/200910415422348?lpos=UK+News_19&lid=VIDEO_2081260_Paedophile+Gang+Leaders+Jailed&videoCategory=UK+News and what about the white female child sex abusers? http://www.chris-uk.org/female-paedophiles

Dan

Straw is still in the House of Commons so still dependent on those Mislim voters but I do not know why he speaks out now rather than earlier.

There may well be a group of Muslim men cruising round and grooming young women and girls and if they are they should be locked up and the key thrown away. Most of those whom they attack will be White because most women and girls in England are white!

IF the police have not been investigating this as afraid of being accused of racism then there should be an investigation in to the Police but there seems to be no evidence for this.

Those guilty are guilty of multiple terrible crimes but seem to have got sentences as little as 6 years. They should be getting life whether they are black White or green.

really?

I wonder why people blame 'pc culture'. There was no fear of PC culture, when we decided to go to Iraq and Afghanistan and murder civilians. It was also absent when the terror bill was being enforced and innocent British Muslims were sent to Guantanemo.

Theo Adams

@Sam Hussey "Unlike Black or Jewish people. Asians in general are completely incompatible with living in Britain today. The more people understand that the better. Their name is tarnished but as it should be.They have biten the hand that has given them refuge. Most unwelcome guests."

No, Asians are certainly compatible with living in Britain today. The most incompatible people with living in Britain today are almost certainly racist British people like you, who don't want to accept change and constantly attack, both verbally and physically, people who don't fit in with their idea of of what Britain should be like. Change happens. Deal with it.

Anthony

Surely the key point you are missing Chris is "specific" problem. The Catholic church had a specific problem with child abuse that they needed to sort out, but as a proportion of all sex crimes against children I am guessing it was small.

Rob Spear

Theo Adams: by constantly verbally and physically attacking such people, they *are* dealing with change. We no longer live in the Christian dark ages, so you have no moral basis on which to condemn violence.

resistor

Have you noticed the unusually high percentages of white males from an NUS heritage (Straw, Woolas and Aaronovitch) who have a tendency to exploit prejudice against Pakistanis?

Keith

It is not the first time Mr. Straw has expressed criticism of ethnic groups as when he expressed dislike for women who came to his advise Surgery wearing Full Muslim dress.( The Chador ).

We do not know the intentions of Pakistani abusers of young white women; it is only a pressuposition that there is a explicit Racist motivation at work.

So long as we agree that it is wrong to abuse young people whatever thair Race or gender other issues can be worked out.

The Tory press tends to present a very hostile view of Female sexuality that encourages negative attitudes to women. So they can not talk. Except that when it suits them the press get on a high horse about other peoples sexual conduct. Straw should realise this and be more careful about what he says.

Jim

Put yourself in the position a CID officer who gets a tip-off about a child molestation ring. You make some initial enquiries and the suspects names come up as obviously Asian. Do you:

a) continue as before, making enquiries, arresting people as necessary, generally pursuing the matter with vigour,

b) refer the matter to higher management, whence with a bit of luck it may never come back, or

c) make a few perfunctory enquiries to cover your back, and do nothing, or

d) drop the case like a hot potato, and hope it goes away?

And which courses of action do you think are likely to mean you will continue on your upward career path, and which have a high probability of completely messing up your prospects?

charlieman

"Put yourself in the position a CID officer who gets a tip-off..."

Dunno, Jim. I don't know what the morals of a CID officer are presumed to be.

I guess that you have an answer to this question, which is that the CID officer has no morals.

However, I will watch the next repeat of Frost on ITV3.

charlieman

Anthony says: "The Catholic church had a specific problem with child abuse that they needed to sort out, but as a proportion of all sex crimes against children I am guessing it was small."

I don't think that there is much of a comparison.

Representatives of the Catholic church abused children in their RC role as priests or workers in care homes. In Ireland and some regions of GB, RC representatives may have been a high percentage of offenders locally. Many crimes were known to their employers.

Pakistani men associated with these crimes did/could not use the power of their religion to mask their acts. Muslims are appalled as everyone else.

AJ

Is Chris seriously arguing that Jack Straw should not have spoken out until there was a statistically robust body of data about the characteristics of individuals/ gangs who rape vulnerable children in northern English counties showing indisputably that Pakistani men were disproportionately responsible? How many more rapes would be required to furnish us with this data set, and how many years of discussion between learned economists and statisticians to reach a consensus?

Perhaps while we await this data set and consensus (which I have a feeling we will never have) it might be valuable to hear the views of unusually experienced and credible politicians with no plausible axe to grind, in particular if that will serve to prevent even one such further crime.

Yvonne Ridley

Jack Straw spoke out because there is a by-election down the road in Oldham and he's playing to the disenfranchised, white, working class voter.
He's playing the politics of race and religion which worked so well for Phil Woolas until he was caught red-handed fuelling Islamaphobia in Oldham.

Ian

Am I the only one thinking the point has been missed. It is not that pakistani men are more likely to rape than any other group of men. It is that pakistani women are protected by their community from rape by pakistani men and white women are not. A pakistani man who grooms a women for rape will choose a non pakistani woman as his victim. Both the choice of victim by the criminal and the choice of which women the community protects are being made on grounds of race. If the pakistani community is capable of protecting pakistani women from predatory men why is it unable to extend that protection to non pakistani women.

Nik

Chris, you wanted stats: Think the following figures come from the Times originally, but are mentioned in various places including the Daily Mail, from where the below quote comes. On the face of it, there does seem to be a problem with this particular kind of sex crime (grooming underage girls on the street) among Pakistani men. Would be interested to know your thoughts.

Researchers identified 17 court prosecutions since 1997, 14 of them in the past three years, involving the on-street grooming of girls aged 11 to 16 by groups of men.
The victims came from 13 towns and cities and in each case two or more men were convicted of offences.
In total, 56 people, with an average age of 28, were found guilty of crimes including rape, child abduction, indecent assault and sex with a child.
Three of the 56 were white, 53 were Asian. Of those, 50 were Muslim and a majority were members of the British Pakistani community.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1344218/Asian-sex-gangs-Culture-silence-allows-grooming-white-girls-fear-racist.html#ixzz1AYGIbAzN

claude

Chris, this time I disagree with you. The issue is too complex to condense it into a comment, but this is the link to the article I wrote on Hagley Road to Ladywood in response to your OP and also other bloggers/commenters...

chris

@Nik, Claude - if you take a specific enough subset of crime, then it's quite possible to show that a vast proportion of that very small number of crimes were committed by an ethnic minority. But is this relevant?
I mean, if it could be shown that robberies in which the getaway car was a red Renault were disproportionately committed by Chinese, would we make an issue of that?
Almost certainly not. So why make a fuss about a small subset of sex crimes, especially as they are not obviously any nastier than other sex crimes? (Remember, "grooming" only because a criminal offence in 2003).

claude

"if you take a specific enough subset of crime..."

But why not? This is done all the time in criminology. The Renault analogy in this context is a super strawman, sorry Chris.

And that's without counting the issue oflike ohammed Shafiq, chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, a Muslim youth organisation, said to the BBC "[t]here are some Muslims who think that as long as these sex gangs aren't targeting their own sisters and daughters the issue doesn't affect them".

AA

Your article is extremely inaccurate to the fact that despite your "statistics" which by the way are nothing short of pointless in a society that massages figures for a living, these practices are rife throughout the UK, and are committed by pakistani men (from young to old) who are abusing, raping, drugging, pimping, blackmailing and assaulting under age white girls. That is a fact, and I can gladly prove that.

Laban

Hmm. I did the sums for the rest of the stats and not only are Pakistanis being arrested at 10% of what would be the 'expected' rate (all other things being equal, which they aren't), but Indians are being arrested at twice the expected rate and Bangladeshis at three times. The Pakistani community appears from these figures to be extremely virtuous. "Other Mixed" weigh in at eight times, and "Other black or black British" have a total of 3 arrests (0.5%) from a community of 400, which extrapolated to whites would mean about 10,000 arrests a year !

One caveat - 2.6% of rape arrests are of people of no discernable ethnicity. As these ethnicities are 'self-defined', were there differences between communities in the percentage of people prepared to label themselves that could make a significant difference.

And one thing which isn't equal - age distribution. In Bradford, where the Asian population are afaik mostly Mirpuri (Pakistani Kashmir), around half the Asian population is under 18. That sort of age distribution implies that the number of potential abusers is lower, assuming that children aren't being arrested. But that would still leave Pakistanis as the second most virtuous group after Chinese. In practice, where we're talking about 2 or 3 arrests, these stats become dubious - but they certainly don't support Straw's contention as far as his police area's concerned.

RH


Your statement that "Islam’s different attitudes towards sexuality and women create a different predisposition among Pakistani men towards sex crimes" is a reasonable hypothesis itself smacks very much of bias of some sort, which you seemingly set out to at the outset to scotch.

rogerh

Was that a dogwhistle I heard? Ah yes, it came from Jack Straw - as honest a politician as ever I saw. Must be a by-election due.

So what prejudices was the whistle tuned to?

Well, Jack is a skilful whistler and tuned in to just about every prejudice you can think of - and you can't pin a single one on him.

Matthew

I saw Straw on Sky News and thought he reasonably added substance to the inevitable dramatic headline - he immediately said that the vast majority of sex offenders are white, but that in his constituency's Muslim community - which he described as 50% Pakistani, 50% Indian - he has seen specific instances that worry him with regards the Pakistani community, and absolutely none within the Indian community. He was thoughtful about his remarks - wondering whether educational underperformance (prevalent in the Pakistani youths of his constituency, not at all prevalent within the Indian boys of his area). No particular Straw fan, not a Labour fan either, but thought he was raising an interesting issue. I do echo the sentiments of those who question why it wasn't mentioned while he was in government, however.

Sean

Its interesting that they are targeting middle class females, which of course turns it into a national issue.

If they target young working class females which they probably live closer too, they will reap the whirlwind for them and their communities.

Which tells you a story that the accusation is probably true.

Ted

Chris, Straw wasn't saying that there is a particular problem of Pakistani rapists - he went to some lengths to point out that the majority of sex offenders are white - but he did point out that there is a particular problem of Pakistani men grooming underage white girls. The PDF you cite says nothing about that particular type of crime and who is perpitrating it. Also note that it's possible that some men of Pakistani origin arrested for sexual assult, for whatever reason, tick the 'Indian' box (accounting for 4.8% of arrests for sexual crimes) rather than 'Pakistani' (0.3%) when self-describing their ethinicity.

Bored in Kavanagasau

Are you saying, for instance, in the Stephen Lawrence case, the more important message was that of knife crime in the capital, which has resulted in many more deaths of teenagers than racist attacks (many of them black) since his murder, and that this message was delayed by concentrating on the relative ethnicities of the victim and attackers in that particular case.

Alex

What the fuck is "street grooming" anyway? Would I be right in suspecting that it, in operational/policing terms, means something like "boys of skin colour A associating in any way with girls of skin colour B"?

claude

I also posted this over at mine, Chris, but basically:

would you also be prepared to argue that -in the wake of their recent scandal- the Catholic church should be spared criticism on the grounds that child abuse also happens elsewhere and not just around Catholic churches?
Would you also say that to argue for the Vatican to take a good look within is tantamount to anti-Catholic bias?

bigbonbons

Nik>> "Researchers identified 17 court prosecutions since 1997, 14 of them in the past three years, involving the on-street grooming of girls aged 11 to 16 by groups of men.
The victims came from 13 towns and cities and in each case two or more men were convicted of offences.
In total, 56 people, with an average age of 28, were found guilty of crimes including rape, child abduction, indecent assault and sex with a child.
Three of the 56 were white, 53 were Asian. Of those, 50 were Muslim and a majority were members of the British Pakistani community."

Real PC to release only these figures. It's a conspiracy. When all the other cities are analyzed, young Pakistani males will form 90% of on-street groomers - even in those cities where none exist.

If anything there has been a careful selection of two areas where a high proportion of young Asians dwell. And a careful PC choice of on-street grooming. PC bollocks.

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