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October 16, 2013

Comments

UnlearningEcon

"For me, all this means that BI is like land value tax or open borders. It's an idea whose merits far exceed its popularity."

We might add to that: reforming patent law (eg having far fewer patents) and decriminalising/legalising certain drugs. And probably some others I haven't thought of.

Rahul

The link between a BI and communally owned resources addresses the reciprocity issue. Alaska's BI is directly linked to its oil and gas endowment. I suspect that several of the oil rich middle east monarchies have BIs in all but name (restricted to citizens, not residents). I wonder if a BI and open borders are not workable together. I suspect they are not.

Simon Cooke

I think the problems are more fundamental (a bit like the land value tax, although that's a different story) - it's where 'basic income' takes us as a society that should concern us. To me it seems like the answer to one of H L Mencken's 'seemingly intractable problems' - simple, obvious and wrong.

If I wrong, I'm yet to be persuaded that I am - if it helps I wrote this a while back:

http://theviewfromcullingworth.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/basic-income-human-nature-and-freedom.html

Steven Clarke

Regarding point 2, aren't people selective about reciprocity?

Where are the campaigns against posh kids getting large inheritances because of the sperm lottery?

Or against house price rises produced by government-backed planning restrictions and credit easing policies?

People hate the idea of unearned income when it's distribution is planned, but love it when it arises arbitrarily out of other processes.

Luke

Simon, I read your blog post. I may have misunderstood it (in which case sorry), but it looks like you have missed the point of the CBA.

You refer to the case of the "£7 job" where the net effect of working 35 hours, after allowing for loss of benefits, would be only £7. A problem, I agree, even if we update the figures. You then say:

"The idea of basic income makes this even more stark. That £7 a week job is now gone since the basic income is far in excess of the previous level of benefits."

No. With the CBA you *keep* the entire CBA, whether or not you have a job. That's the point. Everyone gets it, all the time. You, me, Wayne Rooney. So you are *always* better off if you work. And not by some derisory amount. You're better off by the amount of your wages (less any tax). Far from making the problem "more stark", it pretty much removes it.

You might be right about long term effects/incentives. I don't know. But whatever else it does, the CBA solves "the £7 job" problem.

FromArseToElbow

One way of introducing the CBI idea is to shift the discussion from sharing national income to sharing work time.

If we have an excess of labour, and if we expect productivity and automation to continue to reduce the demand for labour while simultaneously growing GDP, then the current inequity will get worse.

Ceding on time is not in the interests of the privileged, as work is a token for rent-extraction for many, so conceding on a basic income might come to seem pragmatic. The debate will then be about how parsimonious we can be ("the nation can't afford more than a pittance").

PS: Just to add to Luke's good point, not only would you keep the basic income, but you might only pay 1% tax on that £7 of income. A CBI offers the opportunity of a more progressive tax system, without the distortions that the tax-free allowance currently gives rise to.

Luis Enrique

but (and I repeat myself) what about housing?

if the idea is to replace means-tested benefits and remove associated distinctiveness to work, then you can't have people reluctant to get work (or higher paid work) for fear of losing housing benefits. Yet BI won't be acceptable if it leaves the unemployed destitute. But if it's set high enough to cover housing costs in South East England, the effect on labour supply will be titanic. I for one will be withdrawing my labour. The nation quakes.

Luis Enrique

we need citizen's basic housing

Ralph Musgrave

I’m indifferent to BI because it won’t make much difference. Reason is that everyone is on some sort of income: benefits, a wage, pension, etc. So let’s say BI is funded out of person taxation (as good a way as any). BI would then simply consist of knocking £X of everyone’s income and then adding £X back on and calling the latter BI.

Or perhaps I’ve missed something.

Luis Enrique

yes Ralph, more or less everything. Massive redistribution with completely different incentives for recipients, large reduction in bureaucratic overhead.

chris

@ Rahul - there'sno contradiction between open borders and a BI - if the BI is conditional upon citizenship rather than residency.
@ Luis - yes, housing is a problem. But it is for any welfare system (the Beveridge report devoted a lot of time to the problem). One part of the solution is a massive programme of housebuilding. The question of whether people should be subisidized to live in areas of higher housing costs is, to say the least, moot.

Jim

Surely the point is that a CBI would be less than many people currently get from the State in benefits (of one sort or another) and therefore is utterly unviable politically?

Left Outside

Interesting thoughts Chris, comes back to your point a few weeks ago is that you don't really need to be all that bright to see which policies are good. I swear I think more about politics than is strictly necessary.

Luis, I don't think a BI needs to be set at a level that allows someone to live in London. Reducing the London bias would be a good thing and I say that as someone who is benefitting from London bias a lot.

More housing would be a good idea, but London land is valuable, people don't get to live here cheaply.

attila

Just what sort of status would non citizens have if they started each week £150 behind their more fortunate local counterparts?
It sounds more like the Gulf states' version of apartheid by citizenship, IMHO.

Chad Sexington

Rightist who is intrigued by UBI here, some thoughts.

1. If we went the leftist higher UBI route, I suspect people would shun work in their droves, choosing leisure time and Jeremy Kyle over working the checkouts at Tescos. Rather than raise wages to compete for workers firms may be tempted to hire foreigners not entitled to UBI and willing to work for less. So you've got the citizens lounging about while the foreigners do all the donkey work, sounds a bit exploitative and not something lefties would usually be enthusiastic about.

2. The rightist route of the non-re distributive UBI I feel would be seen as a bribe by those living on a subsistence level while the wealthy accumulate sports cars and luxury homes while paying a tiny fraction of their wealth to keep the masses subdued. I think a revolution and full blown collectivism would not be far off but maybe you guys realise this and that's the whole idea, sneaky ; ).

3. Personally, I would feel uneasy knowing that my sole source of income was reliant on their being constant stream wealthy mugs who were willing and able to taxed in order to support me, but maybe that's my right notions of self-sufficiency and individualism rearing their heads.

Apart from that, I'm all for it.

Chad Sexington

Can you imagine if the government had to announce a 15% decrease in UBI payments due to a decline in tax receipts, there would be riots.

But then I guess that would be electoral suicide and the government would be more inclined to borrow/manufacture the money....whether that was sustainable or not.

Neil Harding

Why did wealthy victorians eventually put money into mass sanitation and healthcare. It wasn't (mostly) through compassion but through self interest. This is where the battle for BI etc. will be won - persuading the elite. In the end the best way of saving posh children from cholera and TB was to ensure poor children didn't get it. And the rich needed healthier adults for wars etc. To save their posh children from today's diseases of inequality - drugs, depression and corporate excess, they will need to save us all.

Luis Enrique

LO

I sympathise with your points, but believe it is not politically feasible to say to the jobless and low paid in SE England, oh dear looks like you've got to leave

Chad raises an interesting point about demand for immigrant labour in event domestic labour supply shifts

Stanislas J

I think you miss a 5th point: the movement for the universal Basic Income is not organized.

The consequence of you 4 points is that for UBI to happen, you need a wide citizens/apolitical movement that gather a wide left-right coalition that urge the political sphere to discuss anything else but basic income while explaining the idea to the mainstream world. This does not exist yet in the UK neither in many other countries in Europe. Yet, this is the only way i see it can happen.

The problem is not the lack of supporters: I think we are much more than we think. Only problem is: where is the organization that makes these voices heard? Where is the organization that makes all the existing UBI-friendly forces join their efforts and thereby multiply their power?

It will be a long process to make it so, but if you are interested in working on this strategy, i invite you to visit http://basicincome.org.uk/ and see how you could help!

And please also sign the european citizens' initiative for UBI! It only asks the EU to examine the feasibiltiy, launch pilot projects and stimulate the debate in the EU: http://basicincome2013.eu/

Zorblog

Woww... looking at the comments here, UBI misses the overton window by a mile.
Chris starts by saying that it is demonstrated that UBI is at least workable, et possibly positive. No one challenges the (admittedly fragile) evidence, but provides prejudiced arguments reckoning it is bad and not workable.
By the way, Switzerland is going to hold a referendum next year on UBI. This will give an idea of the overton window. (Switzerland is a sadly much ignored political lab)

David

The question of whether something is feasible is always a long fought battle. The weekend, 10 hour working days, the ending of slavery and the rights of women have all been called unfeasible in their time, always calling on some intractable aspect of human nature to make their claims plausible... This doesn't worry me. What worries me is the trade union skepticism (a point I think Stan makes above). For me, UBI could be a huge help in re-enlivening a site of contestation between capital-labour. But that is simply not on the labour agenda at the moment.

Luke

On Chad's point 1 about employers shifting to immigrant labour.

Would that necessarily apply? I agree my CBI allows me to laze around. On the other, I can undercut immigrant labour while still having a better standard of living than they would if they take the same wage.

SleekMinister

Instead of "But others don't", I would go one deeper and say butters don't. You know as well as I do that whenever someone opens their mouth atleast one person in the room is going hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

john b

Depressing thought: I suspect UBI isn't compatible with EU membership, at least as currently structured.

You can't restrict it to citizens: like all benefits, it's EEA nationals who've met a qualified residency period without it.

I don't see that one getting through the tabloids and politicians.

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エアジョーダン激安

銇濄倢銇倐銇嬨亱銈忋倝銇氭畫閰枫仾鍗樼磾銇銇忋伄鍫村悎銇濄倢銇€傞爢鐣伀銆併仢銇伝銇ㄣ倱銇┿伄鐩存帴銇祼鏋溿仹銇欍€傘偗銉炲康闋伀鍌垫ī鍥炲弾銇€併儢銉┿兂銉夈伄鏂般仐銇勬瘞鏃ャ倰銈点儩銉笺儓 銉戙儠銈┿兗銉炪兂銈广仺銈掋亜銇ゃ伄鏃ャ亱銆佺枒銇嗕綑鍦般伄銇亜褰遍熆鑳冪瓔绲勭箶銇?rhythmn 鐢熷瓨銉撱偢銉嶃偣浼佹キ鍐呫伀鐧诲牬銇椼仸銇勩倠銇撱仺銇屻仹銇嶃伨銇欍亴銇傘倞銇俱仚銆傛湁鑳姐仾銈炽兗銉併伄璨″竷浼戞殗銉兂銈裤儷浼氱ぞ銇仧銈佸郊銈夈倰缃亸銇ㄣ亶銆佽兘鍔涖€佺煡璀樸伀鍔犮亪銆佷唬鏇挎甯搞伀鐝惧湪涓婁竴璨仐銇﹀眳浣忋偄銉夈儸銈逛互鍐呫伀銇婃敮鎵曘亜銈兂銉愩儖瀹躲伄寤舵粸銇洿鎺ャ伄銉優銉炽儊銉冦偗銇偘銉兗銉椼伕銇悕鍌枫仾銇椼仹鎻愪緵銇椼伨銇欍€?
エアジョーダン激安 http://www.rathbonedrains.co.uk/_common/36-Nike-Air-Jordan.html/

ジョーダン スニーカー

銈ゃ兂銈裤兗銉嶃儍銉堢祵鐢便仹鍕ゅ媺銇爺绌躲倰琛屻亞銇椼€佸0銈掕銇广仸姝g⒑灞ョ墿銇仼蹇溿仚銈嬨儸銉撱儱銉笺伄銇勩亸銇ゃ亱銇甫銇规浛銇堛倰鍙栧緱銇欍倠銈堛亞銇仚銈嬨伖銇嶃仹銇傘倞銇俱仚銆傘儙銉笺儓 銉戙偨銈炽兂銈掕臣鍏ャ仚銈嬨亾銇ㄣ仹銉併儯銉炽偣銇€佹檪闁撱€併儣銉兗銉炽€佺敤榛掋偡銉с儷銉€銉?銉愩儍銈般倛銈婂銇忋伄淇濊銈掑彇寰椼仚銈嬨倰鏉ャ倠銇撱仺銇屻仹銇嶃伨銇欍€傘儠銈°儍銈枫儳銉炽伀绮鹃€氥仐銇熴偟銉笺儊銉c兗銈傘偡銉炽儣銉仹銆佺煡銇c仸銇勩伨銇欍€?
ジョーダン スニーカー http://www.kevinpottsdecorators.co.uk/js/32-Football-Uniforms.html/

エアジョーダン2013

銇濄倢銇仭銈囥亞銇╁鍏蜂互鍐呫亴鍏ㄤ綋銇枃鑴堛伄涓仹銇傘仾銇熴伄鐗涖伄宸g┐銇潻銈掍繚銇ゃ亾銇偟銉笺儞銉炽偘銈掋亰鏁欍亪銇椼伨銇欍伄銇с€併仢銈屻伅銉°儶銉冦儓銇劅銇樸仹銇欍€?/span>銆備綍銇屻儑銈躲偆銉娿兗銇晢妯欍伅銆佷汉銆呫伀銇濄伄鍗拌薄鐨勩仾鍔规灉銈掓寔銇c仸銇勩倠銆併仢銈屻倰寮曘亶璧枫亾銇椼仧锛熻尝鏄庛伀銆佸銇忋伄浣曘亱銇仧銈併伀銈汇儸銉栥伀銇€併儑銈躲偆銉娿兗銇儔銉偣銆併偟銉炽偘銉┿偣銆併仢銇椼仸銉忋兂銉夈儛銉冦偘銈掔潃鐢ㄨ銇嗐€併仢銈屻倝銇仚銇广仸VDT銈勬槧鐢汇€併伨銇熴伅瑷晱銈炽兂銈点兗銉堛倰瑕嬫柟銇獓绀恒仐銇︺亜銈嬨€傘伝銇ㄣ倱銇┿伄瀹舵棌銇屽瘑銇嬨伀鏈夊悕浜恒伄鏍勫厜銇仧銈併伀銇椼仧銇勩仺鍝佽唱銈掔潃銇︺€侀珮渚°仾銉┿儥銉伅銆併亗銈嬬▼搴︺€併亾銇洰鐨勩伄銇熴倎銇姪銇戙仸銇忋仩銇曘亜銆?
エアジョーダン2013 http://www.higgsoldminestats.com/images/21-Nike-Mercurial.html/

エアジョーダン 通販

鐒℃暟銇偄銉曘偪銉?銉?銉炪兗銈便儍銉堛伄浠樺睘鍝併伅銇傘仾銇熴伄鎶曡硣銇ㄣ偣銈裤偆銉儍銈枫儱銇瑕炽倰鍗冲骇銇繚璀枫仚銈嬨仧銈併伀渚垮埄銇с仚銆傘儣銉┿儉闈磋博澹层儣銉┿儉鎵嬭嵎鐗┿儣銉┿儉 銉儑銈c兗銈?銉忋兂銉夈儛銉冦偘妫氥€佺壒銇噸銇?- 缇╁嫏銉┿儍銈兂銈般仺鍚屾銆佺敚妤妤嫏銇枹銇椼仸鍟嗗搧銇撱伄鏈熼枔銇с仚銆?
エアジョーダン 通販 http://www.beightonbuilding.co.uk/js/32-Football-Uniforms.html/

ズームコービー8

銇椼亱銇椼€佹渶寰屻伀涓嶈鍓囥仾鍩虹銇啽鎰忋€佽倶銈般儶銉笺偣銆佹煍杌熸€с€佷俊闋兼€с仺蹇嶈€愬姏銇屽繀瑕併仺纰轰俊銇椼仸浣滄垚銇椼伨銇欍€傘亾銈屻倝銇换鎰忋伄銈儠銈c偣銇犮亜銈嬪笇灏戙仾銈儠銈°兗銈掍繚瀛樸仚銈嬬従鍦ㄣ伄鍙ゃ亜瑕嬨亪銈嬨亱銈傘仐銈屻伨銇涖倱銇屻€傘儛銉冦偘瑾块仈澶彜銇梾琛屼腑銆佺湡銇徊闁撱伄銇ц€冩叜銇曘倢銇俱仚銆?
ズームコービー8 http://www.ologybusiness.com/js/21-Nike-Mercurial.html/

ズームコービー8

楂樼礆銈掍粙銇椼仸瀹変尽銇銈掔潃銈嬨伀瀵俱仐銆併偣銉堛偄銇煭銇勮=鍝併偨銉儱銉笺偡銉с兂楂樻劅璎濄€佷綇銈撱仹銇勩仧銇屻€侀潪甯搞伀銇€佷尽鏍笺伄渚″€ゃ亴銇傘倠銇犮倣銇嗙⒑銇嬨伀銈ゃ儭銉笺偢銈掍笌銇堛倠銇с仐銈囥亞銆傚綋鍒濄亾銈屻倝銇皞闁€琚嬨伄澶氥亸銇銇熴仭銇伝銇ㄣ倱銇┿伀琛屻亸銇ㄤ竴鑷淬仐銇亼銈屻伆銇倞銇俱仜銈撱€?
ズームコービー8 http://www.chaincare.com/css/32-Football-Uniforms.html/

エアジョーダン激安

銈裤偘锛?濂冲劒銆併伅銇勩€乼inyMan 灏忋仌銇勮吀銇ㄨ吂銈掍綔銈婄洿銇欐柟娉曘伄銇撱仺锛?銉儸銉冦偪 Dangelo |2013 骞?7 鏈?5 鏃ャ€傘亰銇勩亰鑵广仺瀛﹁ ReshapingLift銆佺洰銈掕銇俱仚銇傘仾銇熴伄浣撱倰銇俱仯銇欍亹銇疆銇忋伝銇ㄣ倱銇?10 15 銇仧銈併伄鐭亜鏅傞枔銈掍繚鎸併仐銇俱仚銆傘仼銇倛銇嗐仾銇撱仺銈掕銇嗐伀鏈涖倱銇с亜銈嬶紵鎭愭€栥亴銇傘倠鍫村悎澶辨キ淇濋櫤鐢宠珛浠舵暟銇伨銈忋倞銇湡闁撱伄銇娿仢銈夈亸銈堛倞鑹亜鑱锋キ銇ㄦ鏈涖仺浠畾銇欍倠銇ㄣ€佷互闄嶃伅鑹亜鍑虹櫤鐐广仹銇欍倛銈婅壇銇勩仐銇亜銈堛亞銇屼汉銇ㄣ伄鍑轰細銇勩伅銈傘仭銈嶃倱銇亾銇ㄧ敓鐢i€g怠鍏堛亜銇忋仱銇嬨伄鐩銈掔瓥瀹氥仚銈嬪繀瑕併亴銇傘倞銇俱仚銆?
エアジョーダン激安 http://www.thediamondshop.co.uk/order/21-Nike-Mercurial.html/

ジョーダン1

鍫村悎浠绘剰銇亹鎬栥倰銇椼仸銇勩倠鍫村悎銇傘仾銇熴伄浜烘牸銇仴搴枫伨銇熴伅銇傘仾銇熴伄鍋ュ悍銇傘仾銇熴伄璧ゃ仭銈冦倱銇€佸父銇窂绉般仐銇﹀疅銈娿亗銈嬩粬銇尰鐧傘伄鍖诲斧銇ㄧ浉璜囥仚銈嬪繀瑕併亴銇傘倞銇俱仚銆傘偣銈裤偆銉伄澶栧嚭銉愩儍銈般倰銇勩亸銇ゃ亱銇椼仧銇勩仐銇嬨仐銇︺亜銇俱仚銆傘儩銉笺儊 銉愩儍銈?銈兗銉偤 銈炽儸銈偡銉с兂銇泦瑷堛仺銇仯銇︺亜銇俱仚銆? 鏈堛仢銈屻伅銇濄倢銈夈仺銇椼仸銇濄倢銇岄潪甯搞伀渚垮埄銇寮忋仾鏃ャ亰銈堛伋澶溿伨銇熴伅銇濄伄銉曘偐銉笺儬銇?1 銇ゃ伄浣欐尝銇伐澶倰瑁呭倷銇椼伨銇欍€?
ジョーダン1 http://www.directrentcar.com/js/32-Football-Uniforms.html/

ジョーダン1

銇濄倢銇壇銇勫彇寮曘儧銉笺儬銈掕姹傘仚銈嬨亾銇ㄣ亰銇濄倝銇忋仩銈嶃亞寰屻伀浣跨敤銇欍倠鍋撮潰銈掓嫛澶с仐銇︺亜銇俱仚銆傝姳瀚併伄銇熴倎銇嬨仾銈婅病鍥eコ鎬с伄鍛煎惛銇ㄧ銇璜栥倰銇傘仾銇熴伄鍏冦偓銉笺儷 銉曘儸銉炽儔鑵归儴鏈€鍒濊繎銇ャ亜銇︺亜銇熸伅銈掍娇鐢ㄣ仚銈嬨仺銇嶃伀銉€銈︺兂 銈兂銉偆銉炽儔銇唬銈忋倞銇仼銇倛銇嗐仾銇撱仺銆?
ジョーダン1 http://www.lawcarpentry.co.uk/Pages/36-Nike-Air-Jordan.html/

ズームコービー8

銇傘仾銇熴伄銉堛兗銉堛儛銉冦偘 銈广儓銉┿儍銉椼伄鍊嬩汉銇郊銈夈倰閬嬨伓銉┿偆銉栧コ鎬с伄銈ゃ兂銈裤兗銉嶃儍銉堣偐銇郊銈夈伅褰笺倝銇儞銈搞儘銈广倰閬嬨伓銇ㄣ亶銇挤銇勩亾銇ㄣ倰璧枫亾銈嬨€傘偘銉冦儊銇澊銇偆銈裤儶銈仹涓€鑸殑銇с亗銈嬨€傘亗銇仧銇亜銇ゃ倐銆佸疅闅涖伄绡€绱勩仹銇傘倠銈广儖銉笺偒銉笺伅鏈綋銇渶楂樺搧璩仹銇傘倠銇撱仺銈掔⒑瑾嶃仚銈嬨仧銈併伀鑹亜銈般儍銉併伅銆併偟銉炽偘銉┿偣銇偣銉氥儍銈亴闁㈤€d粯銇戙倝銈屻仸銇┿伄銈堛亞銇富瑕併仾宸ㄥぇ銇湁鎰忓樊銇湰鐗┿伄銉娿偆銈?"銈ㄣ偄銈姐兗銉?銈掍娇鐢ㄣ仐銇﹁=閫犮仌銈屻仧鐝惧疅鍙兘鎬с倰瑾裤伖銈嬨€傘偘銉冦儊銇澊銇€併亾銈屻倝銇潻銉欍兗銈广儵銈ゃ儕銉煎唴銇埢鍗般仌銈屻倠銈堛亞銇€併伨銇熴€?0妗併伄銈枫儶銈儷鍖栥仌銈屻仧閲戦銈掔磵鍏ャ仐銇︺仐銇俱仯銇熴€?
ズームコービー8 http://www.masts-rigging-ireland.ie/pages/21-Nike-Mercurial.html/

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