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October 27, 2005

Comments

Paddy Carter

Yes, that's what we lack - utopian fantasies to give our lives more 'meaning'. CD surely even in your purplest periods you'd not subscribe to this hogwash.

I have just eaten a Morrison's bacon and leek pasta bake with relish. burp.

Chris Brooke

Are there any passages by Plato, More or Marx which address the matter of how to make "communities more friendly"? Not sure I can think of any, offhand, or any reason to think that this issue was "at the heart of their utopias" (and how happy Marx would be to be described as a utopian!).

Aristotle had one or two things to say on the subject, but this chap Evans doesn't seem to be interested in him.

Unity

Plato's solution was enlightened despotism.

More I doubt even considered the question - his Utopia was fundamentally the antithesis of the Albigensian/Cathar heresy; heaven on earth, a temporal expression of his spiritual belief in paradise. In world where everyone it as one with God, making communities more friendly is not a question that would ever arise.

Marx, who was every bit the utopian; ducked the issue. The state with wither and be replaced with... what?

Marx never really said, although logically his ideas imply a state of utopian anarchy, the pure Athenian democracy - all of which takes us full circle and back to Plato and his enlightened despot.

Unity

Plato's solution was enlightened despotism.

More I doubt even considered the question - his Utopia was fundamentally the antithesis of the Albigensian/Cathar heresy; heaven on earth, a temporal expression of his spiritual belief in paradise. In world where everyone it as one with God, making communities more friendly is not a question that would ever arise.

Marx, who was every bit the utopian; ducked the issue. The state will wither and be replaced with... what?

Marx never really said, although logically his ideas imply a state of utopian anarchy, the pure Athenian democracy - all of which takes us full circle and back to Plato and his enlightened despot.

Might be worth giving Voltaire a try for something on the subject.

Unity

Bugger - sorry about the double post.

Backword Dave

Perhaps Mohammed Atta wasn't declaring the merits of workers' co-ops, but the repugnance does seem aimed at our lack of idealism. Just because you don't share the idealism of religious bigots, doesn't mean that they don't have idealism. It's a good thing that idealism is dead, if you ask me.

But I think the thing the bigots object to is the secularity (if that's a word) of cities, which cults and sects have railed against since we put down roots. I don't think there's any content in their stated complaints: the alienation may be real; the analysis is not. If Muslims in Muslim countries view us with repugnance, well, didn't they always? You only need the slighest of reasons to convince you that your instinct that nothing good ever came from foreigners is right.

dearieme

Is that the More who had Protestants butchered and the Marx whose writings inspired the murder of a hundred million people in the twentieth century?
The al-Quardian gets sillier and sillier.

Blimpish

If it is the lack of idealism they object to, it certainly isn't the lack of egalitarian idealism. Their criticism of us would be that we are so besotted by materialism and this-worldly concerns that we miss the Truth (i.e., God's word). That criticism would apply just as much if we were all good little egalitarians as good little capitalists.

Backword Dave

Blimpish: brevity is the soul of wit. If you weren't on my blogroll, I'd add you.

I read a bit of Dylan Evans last night, and I'm starting to understand why newspapers prefer to hire Arts grads to science and econ grads. He's not stupid and not as narrow as Norm suggests. He does have an unfortunate way with words, though. Many paragraphs could be improved by the trimming of their last sentence. As Chris says, his criticism of the things-which-need-improved in the West is fine. He then reaches for a totally inappropriate criticism from, well, idiots and bigots. The effect of which is to make you think, "The West isn't so bad." That's true, though there's still room for improvement, and improvement should be the point. (Though Blimpish and I will disagree on what form that improvement should take. That's a good thing. I have my blind spots, and no doubt he has his.)

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