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September 10, 2009

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"A Tobin tax would have exacerbated this problem."

So the popular response to the crisis is something that would have made it worse?

In the words of Kent Brockman "Democracy just doesn't work".

Giles

I think you possibly accord too much rationalisation to Turner's prescription for a Tobin tax: he just thought "City profits are proportional to transaction volumes - so tax the latter".

Where the idea really falls down is the idea that more transaction costs would lower volatility. Wider spreads don't really suit anyone except insiders. Whatever wealth redistribution he might have achieved would be unlikely to have been socially useful.

Most of the too-frequent transactions Turner is taking aim at are perhaps owned for fractions of a minute; they don't produce lasting out-of-equilibrium markets. It's storing and hoarding a position which can do that - take, for example, the housing market, where the ability of people to monopolise land is far more important than the number of transactions.

Leverage was the problem - that is where
the solutions lie.

chris

@ Giles - silly me, thinking that the government's technocrat of first choice might do something as vulgar as think.
Couldn't we develop your point? Mightn't a Tobin tax drive the rational arbitrage-type traders out of the market more than it drives noise traders out?
I mean, if traders are over-confident about the profits they expect, they are more likely to regard the tax as worth paying. It's the rational traders who, at the margin, will duck out - but are these really the source of momentum?

Steve

Bulk traders are the major cause behind many of the price rise for many goods .. hence this kind of tax may be necessary to control unwanted price rise.

Giles

Hi Chris: because I'm a bit new at all this typekey/pingback stuff, I'm putting my comment here as well:

While it pains me to defend the people who want Tobin taxes, but I am not sure that the extrapolation between the two kinds of irrationality holds.

I think you can have a fairly straightforward model of how bubbles happen in which every individual agent is rational, but because they are rewarded for short-term over long-term movements (think 90% chance up 1, 10% down 10, sorts of random walks). You might want to curtail the disequilibriating, bubble-forming proclivities of agents that are each acting in a way that accords with individual, rational economic man – because as a system, their operations are destabilising.

The voting analogy fails for me because individual votes do not have the same systemic links as trades – whereas momentum traders, for example, affect each others ‘vote’ on the market by their actions. So, in brief, you can think people are rational, and still be in favour of Tobin taxes to deal with momentum effects – but still want people to vote

BTW, I think Martin Wolf took the exact opposite view to you today: that the Tobin Tax would take out the irrational 0.01bps traders, leaving in the ones that have LTBH positions that are 'rational'. Now, how can we prove who is right?

I appreciate Turner is thoughtful, but his comments seemed a bit off the cuff

Ben

You seem to think that our political beliefs are unconstrained, however is it not true that we may only 'cash them in' on the market place of ideas every 4 years?

Could this not be seen an equivalent form of market restriction to the Tobin tax?

In any case your conclusion is a false dilemma.

The fact that,in the heat of the moment, we sometimes behave irrationally, doesn't mean we can't also have a reasoned public discussion about this irrationality and attempt to correct it.

There is a difference between normative and descriptive rationality. Now perhaps you are questioning our ability to 'know' normative rationality, given that we are in fact irrational. If so, I agree, Savage's axioms are still very much a worthy subject of debate.

omega watches

This is just one idea, and perhaps displays no more than my limited imagination. If there are better ideas out there, that amount to more than "implement something called "market socialism" and then - alacazam! - full employment!" then I'd love to hear them. http://www.watchgy.com/ mostly bank deposits, fell by £143.2bn in Q1. And of course there’s no guarantee such buying will continue.
http://www.watchgy.com/tag-heuer-c-24.html
http://www.watchgy.com/rolex-submariner-c-8.html

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