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June 21, 2020

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LJC

We need to start by reminding ourselves that pensioner poverty arose because Thatcher broke the link between earnings and pensions. Over the following two decades earnings rose faster than prices and, because the poverty line is defined as 60% of median earnings, this progressively pushed more pensioners into poverty.

Now if the RPI, which was the measure of inflation used then, had accurately reflected the cost of living for pensioners this would not have been so important. But for pensioners (and for poor pensioners in particular) costs of utilities and food were most important, while the cost of foreign holidays and personal computers mattered very little. As a result RPI did not adequately represent the true increases in cost of living for pensioners and pensioner poverty was a reality, not just a statistical artifact.

That said there is an argument for reducing the triple lock to a double lock (earnings and prices). What is essential is that the link to earnings is never broken again.

Toynbee also fails to understand that the Pension Credit was merely a way of avoiding raising pensions. Someone who had no occupational pension would benefit; while those who had saved all their lives, but were in lower paid employment would find their occupational pensions and savings offset by reduced Pension Credit; in effect taxing them at a marginal rate higher than millionaires, but one that would be familiar to benefits claimants in the poverty trap.

Adrian Perry

Your argument assumes that the triple-lock will remain long enough for a twenty year old to enjoy it in retirement. I’ve seen safer bets.

huwdavies

Points well made. Way back, probably late 80's, we were encouraged to contract out into private pension plans. By the time I retired the plans had generally underperformed,at a time when fund managers were enjoying record earnings! The whole thing stinks of "scam" so that wealth could be sucked out of pension "pots" by applying disproportionate fees & commissions.

D

If you think of individuals/generations, then triple lock now does benefit people who are young now (assuming it remains in place).

If you think about how society treats it's current young and current old (now and in the future) it benefits people when they are old and costs them when they are young.

We probably want to be looking at have property v have not poverty rather than young v old.

cjcjc

I take those points, although surely a double lock - earnings or prices - would serve the same ends without risking an absurd outcome were there to be a bout of deflation?

Rich

Young people don't believe they'll get the state pension because some excuse will have been found by then to cancel it or make people work til they're 100 before they can collect it. After a series of increases in the pension age I'll have to make it to nearly 70 to collect, whereas my mother picked it up from her 60th birthday.

But assuming that the goal is to increase the pension to some % of GDP, why not simply do that? If pensions should be x% of GDP, make pensions be x% of GDP rather than having these silly and eye-watering increases every year? (Yes, it'll need to be smoothed out somehow to deal with recessions and booms).

Mike Newman

The "old"pension model whether or private assumed you retired at 60/65 and died at 70/75. Average life expectancy is now 85/86 and extending unless covid 19 radically changes long term trends. This means pensions are in payment for at least 10 years longer than before. Unless there is new funding it seems only logical and right that people work longer before. And furthermore I don't see what people have to complain about?

Paulc156

@ Mike Newman
"Average life expectancy is now 85/86 and extending unless covid 19 radically changes long term trends"

1. It's not even 80 for men. At 79.9yrs. And around 83 for women.
2.Apart from 2019 it's not been extending either:

"Longevity improvements in England first faltered in 2011 and had plateaued since 2013, with critics blaming austerity and NHS cuts. Among women, life expectancy fell in both 2012 and 2015."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/03/life-expectancy-in-england-rebounds-after-years-of-stagnation

Blissex

«The "old"pension model whether or private assumed you retired at 60/65 and died at 70/75. [...] This means pensions are in payment for at least 10 years longer than before.»

This argument is based on the common use of expectation of life *at birth*, but what matters for the cost of pensions if expectation of life *at retirement age*, quite a different concept, as most of the extension in the expectation of life at birth has come from a huge fall in early deaths from illness and accidents. Sure more people also live longer lives, but that's largely limited to relatively rich people working in non-disabling jobs, that is middle class people and women tend to live longer.

«Unless there is new funding it seems only logical and right that people work longer before.»

And that's the issue: that providing good pensions that last for an indeterminate period is quite expensive, and upper class people think that they don't need them as poverty insurance, so they greatly object to having them for everybody (as paying them increases their taxes or reduces their profits).

Blissex

«The "old"pension model whether or private assumed you retired at 60/65 and died at 70/75. [...] This means pensions are in payment for at least 10 years longer than before. Unless there is new funding it seems only logical and right that people work longer before.»

The other huge and common mistake made by many propagandists is to look *only* at the costs of old age pensions, as a "dependency ratio" between workers and pensioners only.

Instead what matters is the overall ratio of workers to non-workers (all "dependents"), and non-workers include young people not yet of working age and non-working spouses (mostly women).

The percentage of people who work among the population has remained mostly constant for decades even if (middle class and female) pensioners do live longer because there has been a fall in the number of non-working young people and in the number of non-working spouses.

So broadly speaking there is no "affordability crisis", no shortage of funding.

And if there is a shortage of funding then there must be either one of these outcomes:

* Today's workers will have to save a lot more individually, which is pretty much the same, only less efficient, as paying higher NI and general taxes.
* If they cannot do that, today's workers have to continue working for longer, and then somehow there must be plenty of well-paying jobs that are suitable for sickish and weak older workers.
* If such jobs don't happen, many of today's workers will have to accept dire poverty in retirement, as in the past, which is the overall plan.

Blissex

«pensioner poverty arose because Thatcher broke the link between earnings and pensions.»

Please that's so silly: if we are talking about the state pension, its level is so low that it is *already* pensioner poverty, unless the pensioner on just the state pension somehow owns a property and also remortgages it.

Pension poverty it not an issue with the state pension, but with private pensions because of three reasons:

* Thanks to Thatcher, Blair, Osborne, lots of people became "more competitive" by losing their jobs with decent pay and defined benefits pensions and had to make do for decades with casual jobs with low pay, which did not allow them to build a decent personal pension.

* Even those who stayed in jobs lost by and large their good pay and defined benefit pensions, replaced by below-inflation pay rises (for 20-30 years at least) and by a cut of pensions contributions by 60-70%, with the result that the new "money purchase" pensions are usually 1/3 of older "defined benefit" ones.

* Especially in the south property costs ballooned and many who were not property owners, either immigrant northerners, or poor southerners, ended up saving for the property-shaped pension pots of affluent southerners instead of their own, because of rising rents and house prices.

At the same time that a retirement poverty has increased, there has been also also a massive rise in the living standards of a significant minority of pensioners, especially affluent tory ones owning properties in the south and working for sectors like finance and real estate that have boomed for decades as they been showered with "help" (lots of taxpayer and BoE funds) by several tory governments.

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