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August 26, 2020

Comments

Chris Purnell

In wartime it's often asserted that people 'should' make sacrifices for others. Maybe they are awarded medals but they are making the decision. An imposed sacrifice of the kind that opening schools implies is something else altogether. Your piece is an insightful statement of that and is very welcome.

phoenix_rising

@Chris Purnell

"...but they are making the decision. An imposed sacrifice of the kind..."

The decision to join the military is still an imposed sacrifice when you consider that the type of people joining the military have limited opportunities. This from the New York Times:

"Some 43 percent of the 1.3 million men and women on active duty in the United States military are people of color. But the people making crucial decisions, such as how to respond to the coronavirus crisis and how many troops to send to Afghanistan or Syria, are almost entirely white and male."

ltr

August 26, 2020

Coronavirus

UK

Cases   ( 328,846)
Deaths   ( 41,465)

Notice the ratio of deaths to coronavirus cases is 12.6% for the United Kingdom.

ltr

August 26, 2020

Coronavirus

Israel

Cases   ( 108,054)
Deaths   ( 875)

Deaths per million   ( 95)

———————————–

July 4, 2020

Coronavirus

Israel

Cases ( 29,170)
Deaths ( 330)

Deaths per million ( 36)

Having apparently approached a containing of the coronavirus, the Israeli government incautiously opened schools and businesses, and the result is a persistent community infection level that has now reached 108,054 cases in the small country as compared to 84,996 through all of mainland China.

ltr

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/26/world/europe/germany-schools-virus-reopening.html

August 26, 2020

Schools Can Reopen, Germany Finds, but Expect a ‘Roller Coaster’
With nations determined to return to in-person learning, many will have trouble matching Germany’s formula: fast and free testing, robust contact tracing and low community spread.
By Katrin Bennhold

Jim

Will keeping kids off school for another six to nine months matter very much?

On the one hand we have screamers declaring children's education will be ruined. Well will it, we have only had a half-hearted attempt at remote teaching and it was during school holidays. The private schools seem to have managed, probably due to parental pressure - they are paying and a pull factor from the schools - they don't get paid if nothing happens.

Seems to me much more could be done. But there are problems of motivation and keeping children paying attention. Remote teaching also exposes the very poor quality of housing for a fair slab of our children as well as poor quality of life for many poorer people. Embarrassing and expensive to deal with. Handing out free laptops and providing free broadband seems a small cost compared to all the other disasters we face.

But is the educational output so good and effective anyway. A large slab of our elite jobs are educated in the private sector or we import them. Robotics and AI are likely to replace humans, business is restructuring - we don't need many of them. Uneducated children are strictly a government problem for next week and next year and the next decade but probably don't cost much or the costs are well spread around. Less need for 'chalk-fodder'.

Then there is pressure from the Right to get back to work and the schtick that teachers are lazy lefty blighters lolling around common rooms reading the Staggers. The real balance is 'can we afford a few dead teachers?'. Children seem unlikely to die from Covid and getting children back is the focus in the media. What is not addressed is the far more probable cause of trouble - adults. But getting children back also releases their parents to go back to whatever work they were/can do. So we take the risk of a few dead teachers and cleaners and support staff.

Graeme

Isn't the whole of socialist and Marxist "analysis" based on the premise that you can and must ignore the individual and treat them as amorphous chunks of humanity? You do it yourself when you bang on about twaddle such as people being motivated by class hatred.

Ralph Musgrave

The value of each human life should now be put at about zero. Reason is that the environmental costs of each extra human looks like being catastrophic: i.e. each extra human being living now will quite likely lead to at least one extra human death in fifty or a hundred years time when climate change gets really serious.

Paulc156

@Graeme..."Isn't the whole of socialist and Marxist "analysis" based on the premise that you can and must ignore the individual and treat them as amorphous chunks of humanity?"

Well no. "...society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic." The German ideology.
...whereas capitalism gives us the opposite. 'there is no such thing as society...' Maggie.T,

Paulc156

@Ralph Musgrave
Global population is projected to be in decline during the latter part of this century in any case...but really it's population growth in the advanced/rich economies that threaten us vis a vis 'climate change', because that's where the consumption is concentrated. And to the extent that development of coal and oil plants in India and China are developed it's nurtured with western sourced investment and the target is to produce for export to western consumers!
It's primarily in the global South where the mass of population growth is and their consumer impact on climate is relatively tiny. Furthermore we know how to reduce pop' growth through poverty alleviation and education, primarily of women.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304387807000855

So it might be fairer to say the value of each life on environmental considerations alone should be negative in the per capita wealthiest states and positive in the third world! And that negative value could be transformed by other measures open to us.


D

Maybe I'm being a bit simple here. But is the alternative, keeping schools closed, not also to impose costs some for the benefit of others?

(Costs of children not going to school for benefit of those not die-ing from covid)

Personally, I think you need to give people choice. Parents whether to send their kids or have them attend online, and teachers whether to teach in class or online.

Dipper

what would your genes prefer to happen?

(from a comment in a book that in Kenya older women look for fruit further away from the village (and hence more dangerous) than younger women, because granny's genes would rather granny was eaten by a lion than granny's children)

Postkey

Some critics of the Soviet Union were in fact objecting to its implementation of 'communism'?

"In Britain Nina Temple, the general secretary of the Communist Party; declared that the Socialist Workers Party was right, Russia is not socialist but state capitalist. That was as if the Pope declared that God doesn’t exist . . . "

https://marxists.catbull.com/archive/cliff/works/1997/xx/50years.htm

ltr

August 27, 2020

Coronavirus

UK

Cases   ( 330,368)
Deaths   ( 41,477)

Notice the ratio of deaths to coronavirus cases is 12.6% for the United Kingdom.

Dipper

@ ltr "but Expect a ‘Roller Coaster’"

Germany knows it has to open up but has no idea what will happen, so they say they 'expect a roller coaster', but what they mean is they have no idea. If there are very few hospitalisations and deaths (we hope) then they say 'see, we said it would be a roller coaster', and if, heaven forbid, they have a high rate of cases and hospitalisations, they say 'see, we said it would be roller coaster', so this statement is made to future proof the decision, not because they have any idea.

ltr

What I am finding just now is another wave of coronavirus infections spreading through Western Europe, including the UK. I take no general position about school openings, however openings in the UK must be done carefully indeed, and I would like to be assured enough care is and will be taken.

Dipper

@ ltr

'What I am finding just now is another wave of coronavirus infections spreading through Western Europe, including the UK.'

yes. And no-one dying from it or even in hospital.

I don't really understand why this is the case. It may be that what we are actually seeing is lots of false positives, or people who had it ages ago with some residual RNA. Or it may be that as societies we know we have to keep vulnerable people out of the way so it is spreading amongst young people only.

see https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-coronavirus-immunity-riddle (£) for some more thoughts

ltr

'What I am finding just now is another wave of coronavirus infections spreading through Western Europe, including the UK.'

Yes. And no-one dying from it or even in hospital.

I don't really understand why this is the case.

[ Though I have no response as yet, this is important for us to understand. ]

ltr

August 27, 2020

Coronavirus

US

Cases   ( 6,035,243)
Deaths   ( 184,422)

India

Cases   ( 3,384,575)
Deaths   ( 61,694)

Mexico

Cases   ( 573,888)
Deaths   ( 62,076)

UK

Cases   ( 330,368)
Deaths   ( 41,477)

France

Cases   ( 259,698)
Deaths   ( 30,576)

Germany

Cases   ( 240,558)
Deaths   ( 9,359)

Canada

Cases   ( 126,646)
Deaths   ( 9,098)

China

Cases   ( 85,004)
Deaths   ( 4,634)

ltr

August 27, 2020

Coronavirus   (Deaths per million)

UK   ( 610)
US   ( 557)
Mexico   ( 481)
France   ( 468)

Canada   ( 241)
Germany   ( 112)
India   ( 45)
China   ( 3)

ltr

Notice the ratios of deaths to coronavirus cases are 12.6%, 11.8% and 10.8% for the United Kingdom, France and Mexico respectively.

Blissex

«we exaggerate benefits and understate costs. Psychologists call this the choice-supportive bias.»

Ahhh cognitive biases. But that's just a bias only if the benefits and costs accrue to the same individual. If the benefits accrue to the individual making the case for a choice, and the costs to someone else, there is the "possibility" :-) that it is not an innocent cognitive bias, but a pursuit of self interest.

Blissex

To the other commenters: the topic of this post is *not* whether schools should reopen, but the point that public policy involves impersonally ruthless utilitarianism, that is sacrifice the few for the benefit of the many, and the people cynically agree to it when the chances of being among the few is low.

But the arguments abou that are weak, consider the the case of national service, where every citizen may be obliged to risk life in war. The better argument is that is entirely voluntary: being a member of a state involves benefits and costs, and if among the costs there is the obligation to risk life in war, that is voluntary choice as long as membership can be given up, of course not the day after getting called up for national service. As long as every citizen has the option to move to another country without national service, living in a country with that obligation or its potential is entirely voluntary.

Consider another case: quite a few people die every year in car accidents, so that other people have the convenience of going around in cars. That too is a voluntary choice, and via the political process everyone can vote for limitations and conditions that make car use safer, until the majority is satisfied of the trade-off, and those who don't accept it can opt out.

«Even in a liberal democracy, people are sometimes killed for the greater good.»

It does not have even to be a democracy, as long as opting out is possible, and vice-versa a democracy that forbids opting out can violate individual rights.

«Rather than face this fact and think about it seriously, governments simply forget Rawls and Nozick’s objections.»

So I don't see many reasons of *principle*, contrarily to Nozick's and Rawls' facile individualism as to why in a voluntary membership state (ideally a democracy, but not necessarily) selfish taxpayers should pay more taxes to prevent the deaths of poorer people from bad circumstances or lack of healthcare, or why teachers and parents have a greater right to safety from COVID-19 than children have to an uninterrupted education.

The real problems are in the utilitarian quantities involved, which are often incommensurable (often not even ordinal, never mind cardinal), yet somehow they must be balanced, and in particular in the risk of a dictatorship of the majority, or the disproportionate influence of a minority.

Robert Weston

There seems to be an unspoken assumption here about the precautionary principle, that any level of imposed risk is unacceptable, a principle nearly no one accepts when it comes to their own convenience(i.e. all those people insisting on lockdowns and masks that drive cars with internal combustion engines).

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