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December 08, 2023

Comments

Ben Philliskirk

"This could be because a weak economy breeds discontent with the incumbent parties; or because people look for somebody to blame and that somebody is often the outsiders and marginalized; or because bad times generate a yearning for a past, one in which minorities were quieter."

Come off it. The sections of the population that are the most racist or xenophobic and keenest on 'nostalgia' tend to be elderly and retired, often homeowners with a good deal of disposable income and conspicuously consuming holidays and eating out.

The idea that poverty leads to intolerance is far too simplistic and narrowly determinist. I'd suggest that the climate is much more conditioned by broader inequality than poverty, an intolerance bred on contempt for those that are different and which is fed upon by a media that sees a market for this kind of whipped-up controversy and politicians who target small resentful groups in the hope of votes. Enoch Powell's vile speech came in the midst of a long period of growth and unparallelled economic security amongst the population.

Aaron Headly

Chiming in here from America: The phrase "born on third base but thought he hit a triple" is in wide use here, and deservedly so.
A newer variation that has become more common since 2015 is "born on third base but thought he scored a touchdown." It has proven apt for a few of our most-public figures.

Jan Wiklund

As George Orwell claimed about the British ruling class in the 30s: Those in power has such a thick padding of money between them and reality so that they don't need to know anything.

On the other hand, Swedish undersecretary of state (in the 40s) Per Nyström claimed that the high quality of the legendary Swedish Social Democrat government of the 30s was an effect of the people in it sharpened by years of class struggle against capitalists and capitalist society in general. They had fought their way in and won by competition.

What we have to explain is why there is so little class struggle there to sharpen poples' abilities for politics.

ltr

The idea that poverty leads to intolerance is far too simplistic and narrowly determinist. I'd suggest that the climate is much more conditioned by broader inequality than poverty, an intolerance bred on contempt for those that are different...

[ An important criticism, explaining much of why and how and the way in which Jeremy Corbyn was tragically ruined politically. ]

rsm

Why does Friedman get to cherry-pick away the Great Depression, or was FDR's intolerance for marijuana the "turn away from openness" he is talking about?

Blissex

«schoolteacher politics, the notion that bad policy is mere intellectual or moral error that could be avoided if only we had better people in charge [...] high pay in the financial sector attracts talent away from politics. [...] attracts second-rate egomaniacs [...] Being Prime Minister [...] requires a basic statistical literacy [...]»

I am confused: our blogger starts by saying one thing and then the opposite by complaining that we did not have “better people in charge”.

Also how can he argue that the UK COVID-19 policy was an “intellectual or moral error that could be avoided if only we had better people in charge” than someone like Boris?

The excess death statistics of the UK are quite similar to those of most "first world" states, like the USA, France, Italy, etc.; were they all rulewd by “second-rate egomaniacs” without “basic statistical literacy”? I tend to prefer the thesis that they all had governments chosing "half-baked mass lockdowns" instead of "zero COVID" because the latter was too "collectivist".

Blissex

Another confusing passage here:

«The Tories have no economic offer to make to voters [...] a boom in housing and in illiquid mortgage derivatives and stretched bank balance sheets»

For 40 years the Conservative economic offer to the voters has been to enrich the 20-40% that make "Middle England" with “a boom in housing and in illiquid mortgage derivatives and stretched bank balance sheets” which has made those voters much, much richer. That to me looks like a pretty substantial economic offer, and one that is pretty much the same as the economic offer by New Labour and the LibDems.

Starmer is leading the poll, is he making an economic offer to voters different from that of the Conservatives?

Perhaps our blogger meant to write "The Tories have no [new] economic offer to make to voters", but what change something that has been so successful, something that New Labour and LibDems seem to agree as well?

«The fact is that capitalism is not working as well as it once did»

But for whom? For finance and property interests it has been working very well indeed, and it is not just that "the Tories have also sustained in office by simple deference" but by the gratefulness of their voters who have made so much money thanks to the competence of Thatcher, Blair, Cameron, May, Johnson in delivering big profits to them. Thatcherism is not supposed to work well for "losers" and "scroungers" (especially those in the "pushed behind" areas).

aragon

Intellectual curiosity is also useful, I include this article.

https://theconversation.com/why-the-uk-economy-is-in-such-a-state-and-even-the-labour-party-doesnt-seem-to-get-how-bad-things-are-218476

"Our book [not mine! - SOAS] concludes that the answer to stagnation in wealthy countries, including Britain, is not more growth of the service sectors – especially finance – which have a poor record in raising productivity. Rather, Britain needs a wave of public investment in its productive sector and a sustained effort to reduce inequality. In simple terms, there must be a decisive shift away from capital and towards labour.

Decrying the economic failures of the Tories is easy. But confronting the economic disaster currently facing the UK requires a complete reset. “Securonomics” offers little evidence that the Labour Party is aware of the magnitude of the challenge it hopes to face."

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."
Edmund Burke 1770.

Blissex

«why there is so little class struggle there to sharpen poples' abilities for politics.»

My usual answer" mass rentierism, where the "aristocracy of the working class" have been pacified with good pensions and massive capital gains.

Blissex

«"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." Edmund Burke 1770»

«mass rentierism, where the "aristocracy of the working class" have been pacified with good pensions and massive capital gains.»

My usual quote from a previous commenter: “I raised the problematic policy on my CLP Facebook group. I was stunned by the support for the policy from the countless landlords who were Party members! "I can't afford to give my tenants a rent holiday" "This is my pension, I'll go bust" etc etc. Absolutely stunning. I had no idea how many private landlords there were in the Party. Kinda explains a lot...”

Ben Philliskirk

@ Blissex

" I tend to prefer the thesis that they all had governments chosing "half-baked mass lockdowns" instead of "zero COVID" because the latter was too "collectivist"."

Strange idea that the Covid response that would involve masses of people living in isolation and dissolve society for an indefinite time in order to chase a chimera could be described as 'collectivist'.

ltr

Brilliant passages:

Tories have also sustained in office by simple deference - the habit of mind which leads people to atrribute merit to those in power. You don't need Marxian theories of ideology to believe this (though they help!). It was Adam Smith who wrote:

"We frequently see the respectful attentions of the world more strongly directed towards the rich and the great, than towards the wise and the virtuous. We see frequently the vices and follies of the powerful much less despised than the poverty and weakness of the innocent…The great mob of mankind are the admirers and worshippers, and, what may seem more extraordinary, most frequently the disinterested admirers and worshippers, of wealth and greatness."

ltr

I was stunned by the support for the policy from the countless landlords who were Party members!

[ No; you were not stunned but knew exactly what you would find. Why not set down authoritative national data, and find out if the data are stunning?

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/11/us/politics/rent-burdens-low-income-life.html

December 11, 2023

Record Rent Burdens Batter Low-Income Life
More tenants than ever spend half or more of their income for shelter, leaving less for everything else, taking an emotional toll and leaving some without a place to call their own.
By Jason DeParle

The federal government deems shelter affordable if it takes 30 percent or less of household income, a goal that only about half of the nation’s 44 million renter households meet....

jim

We have the old British problem, not sure if we get into bed with America or into bed with the EU. We fell out with the EU and have yet to find where the American boyfriend's stairs are, or even which American boyfriend. As Noel would say,

we argue all night,
as to who has the right,
to do what, with which, to whom.

I do wish we'd make up our mind.

Obviously the politicians don't give a s&*t because they will make money and pension whatever happens. We see every day a new childish game being played to divert attention away from those things not being done.

Aragon above points to the difficulty of what to do as a nation. We can't all be marketing consultants, or sell guns and bombs or make millions through finance. There is some sort of Bell Curve of jobs that has to be roughly matched with the Bell Curve of available people. We don't seem to have thought much about that. Indeed we seem to have very expensively developed a mismatched system.

The notion 'The Market will provide' seems rather lazy hopeful thinking. An avoidance of thinking or attempting to match things up however loosely. At least one of the elephants in the room is housing cost. A young person has to earn an impossible amount of money to get a home. Which leads straight into the UK being uncompetitive in all but a few fields of work.

If nothing else I hope Starmer et al build plenty of council houses - close to nice places with pseudo-tudor cottages.

ltr

'The Market will provide' seems rather lazy hopeful thinking. An avoidance of thinking or attempting to match things up however loosely. At least one of the elephants in the room is housing cost. A young person has to earn an impossible amount of money to get a home. Which leads straight into the UK being uncompetitive in all but a few fields of work.

[ Perfect summary comment, for which I am grateful. ]

ltr

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=nFZM

January 15, 2018

Real Residential Property Prices for United Kingdom and United States, 1980-2023

(Indexed to 1980)

Real property prices in the US are far higher than at any point since 1880, when the data begins. But, UK property prices are much higher.

Blissex

«We have the old British problem, not sure if we get into bed with America or into bed with the EU.»

My usual quote, Tony Benn already wrote in 1965, in his "soft left" early phase:

“Defence, colour television, Concorde, rocket development - these are all issues raising economic considerations that reveal this country's basic inability to stay in the big league. We just can’t afford it. The real choice is — do we go in with Europe or do we become an American satellite? Without a conscious decision being taken the latter course is being followed everywhere.”

Eventually the choice between 1973 and 2016 was: "become an american satellite and also go in with Europe to mess with it on behalf of the americans". Rah! Rah! :-(

Blissex

«'The Market will provide' seems rather lazy hopeful thinking. [...] At least one of the elephants in the room is housing cost»

Someone's cost is usually another's income, and The Market "steered" skilfully and determinedly (no laziness or hopefulness), by the BoE and the government, has indeed provide huge housing profits for decades to owner-occupiers and landlords.

My point as always is that the boom in housing profits didn't just "happen", and didn't just screw non-incumbents, it was a deliberate long term policy to make a large minority of incumbents much richer entirely at the expense of the majority.

That is something that I guess "progressives" seem to steadfastly refuse to acknowledge I guess because:

* If it is fantasized that the the thatcherite governments of the past 40 years have impoverished everybody (except perhaps billionaires) with bad policies including bad housing policies, it becomes obvious that the 43% of voters, 14 million people, who voted for the Conservatives in 2019, do not vote on self interest.

* If they don't vote on self interest then the "progressive" columnists of "The Guardian" must be right that those voters only vote on identity and culture, and therefore they must be bigoted reactionaries ("brexiters") who vote for racism, homophobia and misogyny and therefore fighting racism, homophobia and misogyny is all that being progressive ("remainer") is about.

Blissex

«A young person»

You means more generally a non-incumbents, that is "losers" who made the bad choices of being born in the wrong decades, in the wrong families, in the wrong areas and is thus paying the price of their bad choices.

Because older "losers" who lost their jobs in the "pushed behind" areas some decades and were too poor to afford to buy property in the right areas are in the same situation, and will live in dingy bedsits (if they are lucky) for the rest of their lives.

«has to earn an impossible amount of money to get a home»

A commenter on "The Guardian" candidly wrote some time ago:

“I will put it bluntly I don't want to see my home lose £100 000 in value just so someone else can afford to have a home and neither will most other people if they are honest with themselves”

That's the very essence of "centrism".

Ben Philliskirk

As Blissex repeatedly hints, one of the problems with political discourse in this country is that it so often sticks to the idea that the right and the Tories are market fundamentalists.

In reality the Thatcher governments saw the replacement or marginalisation of real and mythical vested interests (certain professional groups, public sector bureaucrats, unions) with their own (financial interests, quangocracy, property owners, 'consultants'). This process was so successful that it was even extended under 'New Labour' (who accelerated the return of mass private landlordism) and is highly entrenched now. There's nothing 'natural' about this situation, as the current structure of the rail system and private utilities shows, means to profit from public money and rigged competition are built in.

Jim

Long ago I was an engineering manager. I decided to learn about management and joined a management consulting firm.

But I quickly found that management consulting had very little to do with the craft of management. At the bottom end there were strategy studies, roadmaps, market research, project management etc. Then there were 'the bas56rds' upstairs who plotted and connived.

One job was to do with water privatisation. One of our plotters (not known for ethics) was involved in negotiations and returned to declare 'what a bunch of operators'. He was impressed. They were as unethical and sinful a bunch as he had ever met and the water people were just as bad and opportunity aware.

Ministers have short horizons and limited bandwidth and need praise. On to the next job in a month or two so don't waste time on fights you will lose. The civil servants were very good, but stuck in the middle and needed the salary. The rest is history.

You never fully understand a thing until it no longer matters. And I never did learn much about management, but it is a wicked old world.

Blissex

«the idea that the right and the Tories are market fundamentalists. In reality the Thatcher governments saw the replacement or marginalisation of real and mythical vested interests [...] with their own»

A very good way of saying it.

Another way is that used by thatcherites is "championing consumers (often female) instead of producers" (as said by the likes of Willets and Major, for example). Now most people are both producers and consumers, as in they produce to earn the money to consume, so it would be a wash for them, up to a point.

Which categories however don't need to produce in order to consume? Well, all sorts of rentiers. So thatcherism is fundamentally about championing rentierism, and here we are...

Is that a "class base of bad government"? Not as such -- for rentiers it is a class base of very good government for their benefit.

Blissex

«one of the problems with political discourse in this country is that it so often sticks to the idea that the right and the Tories are market fundamentalists.»

I have come to the conclusion that the "leftoids" who connive in this weird idea are actually doing so in bad faith, because after the colossal amounts of public money spent by Treasury and BoE to intervene in "The Markets" in 2008 and subsequent decades, vastly larger than those ever spent to bailout productive businesses like BL and NCB in decades past.

Some "leftoids" actually even celebrate such enormous and enormously wasteful intervention in "The Markets" as if it were the "New Deal" trying to save the jobs of the little people instead of being just refilling the huge bonus pools of rich spivs and bailing out "Blow You! I am alright Jack" affluent property speculators.

Jan Wiklund

Blissex Dec 9, 11.13: So you mean that everyone is bribed? How would that be possible? If they are, everyone has got his due and there is nothing to be upset about.

If not, some people – probably a huge lot – has NOT got his due, and the big question is why they don't organize and start some fuss...

ltr

I have come to the conclusion that the "leftoids" who connive in this weird idea...

[ The offensive language here explains everything to me. There has never been an effort at open discussion, only repeating efforts to distort and contradict or negate all these liberal writings...

At least be honest and possibly be thoughtful. ]

ltr

I have come to the conclusion that the "leftoids" who connive in this weird idea...

[ No wonder I found these repeated criticisms so empty, for all the pretense. The criticisms were all and always the same. There was no effort to engage arguments, only pretense.

I am slow, but I understand now. ]

Blissex

“the Conservative economic offer to the voters has been to enrich the 20-40% that make "Middle England" with “a boom in housing and in illiquid mortgage derivatives and stretched bank balance sheets” which has made those voters much, much richer.”
“the "aristocracy of the working class" have been pacified with good pensions and massive capital gains.”

«Blissex Dec 9, 11.13: So you mean that everyone is bribed?»

I guess that for someone who is immersed in the middle class like fish in water, that “20-40%” constituting “the aristocracy of the working class” is “everybody” :-).

«If they are, everyone has got his due and there is nothing to be upset about.»

Even if “the aristocracy of the working class” were “everybody”, when property prices double in 10 years, a $100,000 house generates $10,000 a year in gains, a $300,000 house generates $30,000 a year in gains, and since the $200,000 price gap becomes a $400,000 price gap, that is $200,000 has been redistributed from the owner of the $100,000 house to the owner of the $200,000 house. The bribes can be very different in size, and the lower rungs of bribees get screwed by the higher ones.

«probably a huge lot – has NOT got his due, and the big question is why they don't organize and start some fuss...»

That's a big question and it is the point of my mentioning that the right-wingers love the big state when it is in their favour, for example when big state intervention and welfare benefits finance and property interests. Some answers:

* That “aristocracy of the working class” is as a rule the most politically active part of the working class, because they have the interests and the time to do politics. And they do: they have become enthusiastic "progressive" thatcherites, loving their Clinton and Blair.

* When some "populist" politics arises the upper and upper-middle classes viciously attack it, see in very different ways Trump and Corbyn.

* The lower working class is not getting uniformly shafted, the upper and upper-middle classes have been adopting the "boiling the frog" technique of gradualism, and have been often careful to preserve some of the perks of the older generations of the lower working class. While many in the lower working class are already living in slums doing jobs not much better than working the looms, other groups are still hopeful that they can retire before things go back to dickensian.

Blissex

«And they do: they have become enthusiastic "progressive" thatcherites, loving their Clinton and Blair.»

For someone who is not even pretending to be a "conniving" "leftoid", here is a pithy summary by the arch-mandelsonian J Cowley when editor of "The New Stateman", from 2014-11:

“Miliband’s [ ... ] might have to accept before long – or the electorate will force him to – that Europe’s social-democratic moment, if it ever existed, is fading into the past.”

"There Is No Alternative" :-(

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