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July 13, 2024

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Paddy Carter

I am not disputing your main message, but I was thinking that some of these considerations (some investments put other firms out of business, others fail) must already be included in whatever the aggregate K=>Y relationship seems to be.

A couple of things that might interest you. As you know, the separation of K and T has always been more of a matter of methodological convenience, not a description of how things really work. When I was doing my econ education I was told models of capital-embodied technical change were too fiddly and unsatisfactory for various reasons, but it looks to me like more recent work has cracked it. The idea that K can change T opens up the possibility of a larger impact of investment on growth - see the first paper here for instance:
https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/jones-ben/htm/research.htm

and some recent work has started thinking about the economy as a production network, and asking whether investments in some parts of that network might have large spillovers, this one for example:

https://www.richmondfed.org/-/media/RichmondFedOrg/publications/research/working_papers/2024/wp24-02.pdf

rsm

What if my main mission is to get government to just let me sleep outside on commons again, not growth, which just makes me depressed because more growth inevitably means more enclosure and less freedom not to participate in markets?

TickyW

Investment expenditure definitely adds to value added. If investment expenditure in a period is domestically sourced then aggregate user cost won't change and so national income must grow by I. There is no reason to suppose that raised investment expenditure will reduce consumption expenditure.

Paulc156

@TickyW...all things equal more income diverted into investment requires less income spent elsewhere.

LTR

"We should add to this: you can't invest your way to rapid growth either..."

Adding this would however be incorrect, since China has been investing itself to profound growth since 1977. No other country has come near the investment level or the growth since then. And, a sense of the quality of growth that is evident comes from looking at the world-leading research productivity in China.

The Chinese accomplishment has come with prominent Western economists continually arguing that the Chinese economy is in dire shape.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1pOZz

August 4, 2014

Real per capita Gross Domestic Product for China and United Kingdom, 1977-2023

(Indexed to 1977)

TickyW

@Paulc156

You make a good point but if the capex were funded from retained profits would not national income rise by I?

TickyW

@paulc156

If Y - C = S then increasing I increases S. This comes about either through an increase in Y or a decrease in C.

My understanding of Keynes suggests that increasing I increases both Y and S.

Blissex

«The government's "number one mission" of boosting economic growth»

For whom? The usual purpose of generic terms is to obfuscate propaganda. But for example the governments of the past 40 years have achieved high growth for the living standards of finance and property rentiers (entirely redistributed from the lower classes), a huge success.

«consider an aggregate production function»

Any consideration that begins with the fantasy of an "aggregate production function" seems to me to be silly or propaganda. Just skip it.

«Solow estimated (pdf) that only one-eighth of the increase in US GDP per worker between 1900 and 1949 was due to increases in the capital stock. The rest, he said, was due to technical progress. [... etc. ...]»

Now that is more interesting. But is still highly misleading: most of the increase in productivity has been due to the enormous "consumer surplus" of coal and oil, which for very cheap provide enormous amounts of work. Oil fields are the most productive capial ever "invented".


Wrigley, "Energy and the english industrial revolution (2013):
"Noting that one steam horse power was estimated as providing the power equivalent of 21 manual labourers, he suggested that in France ca 1840 steam engines were performing the work of 1.2 million labourers but that by the mid-1880s the rapid expansion in the use of steam engines meant that this figure had risen to 98 million labourers, ‘two-and-a-half slaves for each inhabitant of France’ [19, III, p. 74]."

Blissex

«some recent work has started thinking about the economy as a production network»

Amazing news from America!

In other parts of the world that kind of work is not so recent. :-)

rsm

"entirely redistributed from the lower classes"

Why not incorporate the "alchemy of banking" in your model, which allows indefinitely-expanded balance sheets (backstopped by the Fed) to create money-like instruments that make up the bulk of assets on the balance sheets of the rich?

Paddy Carter

«some recent work has started thinking about the economy as a production network»

I wrote that badly. What I should have written is that they have recently figured out how to write down formal mathematical models of production networks within a general equilibrium setting, and as a result are starting to reach conclusions that others, not tied to formality, might already have reached. (and many some new conclusions)

LTR

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/17/business/britain-labour-industrial-policy-economy.html

July 17, 2024

To Revitalize Britain’s Economy, a Plan for a Stronger Government Role
The Labour Party’s economic agenda, like many other programs around the world, puts political leaders more firmly in charge of industrial policy.
By Patricia Cohen

The last time a freshly minted Labour government unabashedly campaigned on an ambitious national industrial policy to revive the British economy was 50 years ago, and the results were generally viewed as disastrous.

The 1974 program of subsidies, state ownership and power sharing among business, unions and government resulted in strikes that paralyzed the nation. And the government’s goal of picking industrial winners turned into a policy of backing losers like the automaker British Leyland and British Steel Corporation.

The current Labour Party has clearly jettisoned that ’70s era legacy. Keir Starmer’s new government, which is scheduled to formally lay out its economic agenda when Parliament opens on Wednesday, is nonetheless embracing the idea that the government must play a key role in driving Britain’s stagnant economy.

Policies that put political leaders more firmly in charge of the economy have taken hold all over the world. India, Brazil, Malaysia and many European capitals have all signed on...

Blissex

"the government’s goal of picking industrial winners turned into a policy of backing losers like"

The finance and property sectors!

The article by Patricia Cohen repeats (like our blogger here does) the thatcherite propaganda that the governments of the past 40 years have not done "industrial policy" where instead they have spent (or lent forever at 0%) hundreds of billions, and since 2008 literally trillions, to boost the finance and property "industries", guaranteeing the jobs and bonuses of their executives with super-generous subsidies and money-no-object bailouts.

The amount of public funds that New Labour and Conservatives+LibDems have spend on industrial policy for the finance and property "industries" have been much bigger and over a much longer period than any spending on "British Leyland and British Steel Corporation". Just one case:

http://www.coppolacomment.com/2018/01/the-carillion-whitewash.html$
«RBS was deeply insolvent. Rescuing it cost the U.K. Government £45bn, and RBS has lost a further £58bn since. Nearly ten years after the crisis, it is still in majority public ownership.»

Jan Wiklund

But who the hell is concerned about GDP anyway?

Most research, for example see Richard Layard, confirms that people are not interested in having more, per se, what we are interested in is not having less than the next guy. A more egalitarian society would make us more happy than a fast-growing economy.

Probably for more than one reason – more focus on growth requires heavy restructuring, insecurity and loss of habitat. We will need to say farewell to friends and family – which definitively makes us more unhappy.

Why not focus on getting rid of waste (for example ridiculously high CEO rewards, consultants fees and contractor profits)? Perhaps that would give room for some raises for those on the lower 70 % of the income scale?

rsm

"Rescuing it cost the U.K. Government £45bn"

When you have a standing unlimited dollar swap line with the Fed, does any UK taxpayer ever have to pay for any of it?

"Why not focus on getting rid of waste (for example ridiculously high CEO rewards, consultants fees and contractor profits)? Perhaps that would give room for some raises for those on the lower 70 % of the income scale?"

What if politically, you will always run into Trumps who will more than undo anything you try to set in place, so to avoid the endless cycles why not use the power of central banks' being able to lend forever at 0% to fund a high basic income?

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